Comments on Chapters 11-14
from John Ortberg's The Me I Want to Be: Becoming God's Best Version of You
1. Ortberg writes- "we pray more than we know" and then goes on to cite numerous examples of how this happens. He also quotes Richard Foster who says 'countless people have such a "stained glass image" of prayer that they fail to recognize what they are experiencing as prayer and so condemn themselves for not praying.'" (chapter 11)
Respond to these thoughts or other thoughts from chapter 11 that struck you.
(I can personally relate to the idea of praying a lot without the stereotypical "fold your hands, bow your head type praying". Much prayer that I do I become conscious of in retrospect- "yes, when I was thinking about "this or that" I was indeed praying.")
2. Is the image of the brook trout helpful for you-- see fly, want fly, eat fly (result- enslaved)? Ortberg says "temptation promises freedom but really makes us a slave. (chapter 12)
3. "If I walk down this road, where will it lead in the long run- toward or away from the me I want to be? Would this be a helfpul question for you to ask? Would it make a difference? Or is more helpful to ask- "if I do this will the 'idiot lights' on my spiritual dashboard go off (see p.141) (chapter 12)
4. Chapter 13 states "tell me your gifts and I'll tell you your sins" . It then lifts up the Enneagram tool which helps define 9 patterns in people which one will naturally describe us "better than others." Within each pattern is a strength but also a possible weakness within that pattern. The 9 patterns are:
Reformer, Server, Achiever, Artist, Thinker, Loyalist, Enthusiast, Commander, Peacemaker
As I read it, I was drawn to the description of achiever which seems to me how I am wired. I read the description of the blessings as well as the blind spots and it seems to fit so well. How about you? Which pattern seems to fit? Does the blind spots make sense as well?
5. When we find ourself out of the flow (chapter 14), Ortberg reminds us the the bible often uses the metaphor of "putting on clothing". At same time, he reminds us that we have to "take off" other things. In this chapter, one of the things he suggest we take off is "RAGS" which stands for
RESENTMENT
ANXIETY
GREED
SUPERIORITY
Obviously, we need to focus on taking off all those things. Which part of the RAGS acronymn is harder for you to "take off"?
6. Has anyone taken the MONVEE free online assesment that comes with the book? What did you learn from that experience?
NOTE- I know that some have felt uncomfortable posting. Feel free to comment anonymously if you wish or if you'd rather make comments to me via email, send them to pastordave@goserve.net. Realize that all feedback you provide helps teach me how to do things better in the future. I appreciate you being involved and reading book with me.
Well, I will indicate feedback that I'm still here. But it _has_ been more difficult to make time for this discussion recently, especially since the level of involvement seems to be way down. I very much hope anything I've written has not discouraged people's participation, and unless I'm convinced I haven't been a problem, I _am_ less inclined to offer more of my perspective on "keeping in step with the Spirit." After all, I'm not even a member of this congregation.
ReplyDeleteI have wrestled with each of the RAGS in my life, and hope I have overcome them at this point. I am keeping a close watch on resentment, though. So many people make it difficult (probably without a clue) for others to respect them and their reasoning.
I have been saving the MONVEE process until completing the discussion. I plan right no to let my Elaine wife take the assessment if she wishes to.
I tried posting earlier today but for some reason it would not go through. I just want to say David that I really appreciate your comments as I find other perspectives very useful.
ReplyDelete1. It was affirming that I do pray more often than I realize; however since prayer is a conversation I need to spend time alone in a quiet place to listen to what God has to say to me and frankly I am not very good at this and need to strive to do it more often.
2,3. When I a faced with the same temptation over and over sometimes I am like the trout and don't even see it for what it is. Other temptations I finally listen to the Holy Spirit stirring in me and I am able to see clearly that it is not profitable and sometimes is a tactic that Satan uses to lure me away from God. I am very blessed to have wise people in my life that I can talk to to help me see the way out that God offers me and I am then able to praise God for his deliverance.
4. I really wasn't able to see myself so easily in one pattern I see myself as a server and a loyalist and fear is the one pitfall that really struck me.
5. I have struggled with anxiety for years and keep trying to "take it off" only to find that I keep "putting it on" again. I am also in the same pattern with resentment right now and am trying to turn that over to God.
6. I tried to do the on-line assessment but had trouble getting in and am not able to take it but I would really love to hear others feedback on that.
David, as noted in my previous response, I too understand being uncomfortable as the numbers seem to dwindle. I had a horribly busy couple of work weeks which helped pull me out of this long enough to come back with some enthusiasm again. For me personally, I've just decided to stick to it and get the most out of my input. I'm hoping some more people will share as we near the end of the book. It is very nice to have other opinions as Deborah said. Let's us few not give up and hope some more people join in!
ReplyDelete1) I think because I travel, I find myself praying in all the oddest of places. This idea of continuous prayer or conversation was not a new thought to me. However, I do really want to work on the thought of the 'awareness of the presence of God.' I like the idea of speaking the same no matter who is in front of you, and knowing that God is always listening is a great way to help remind me of this.
2) I am getting better at controlling all those temptations, I think more so because I have little eyes watching me and it makes it easier. Instant temptations, as in the case of the fly are not the problem. It's the long term ones, less impulse, that I have work to do on.
3) The idiot lights analogy was perfect for me. I hear that beeping a lot and can ignore it very well. I need to pay attention to the idiot lights!
4) I went through this part very carefully with my highlighter. I wanted to be as honest as I could, and I could almost make a case for every one of those at various times. Maybe that's my 'inability to perceive my own incompetence' coming in! I did find that the most honest parts pointed me more toward the 'reformer'. Especially the weaknesses as far as arrogance and self righteousness, that when I allow myself to see it, completely cuts me off at the knees in a much needed way.
5) It's a toss up between resentment and anxiety. Both have their moments in the sun. Both getting better, and in that thinking, anxiety has further to go.
6) Like Deborah, I too had trouble logging in to do the test.
On to chapter 15! Just got our power back on, prayers that the rest of you are doing alright as well.
I've finally caught up on my reading and feel ready to comment.
ReplyDelete1) I think we all carry on an "inner conversation." That conversation can be prayer if we're conscious of the presence of the Spirit. Sometimes I carry on a running prayer, and that's good. But I do worry about those times when I'm not conscious of the presence of the Spirit and know God must be listening in on thoughts I wouldn't be proud of.
2. The trout is a very simple image, but it works for me. Temptation and our response to it can be that simple. It's so easy to get taken in without thinking, and easy to get hooked. (I must admit, however, that not all the trout I've met are that easy to catch)
3. I found the "idiot light" analogy a lot less useful. That was partly because the term comes from a different source--the idiot lights replaced gauges because people couldn't understand them (they were not smart enough). So when an important value is exceeded (like engine temperature) the light comes on, but otherwise you don't have to worry about it. Soul satisfaction is a lot more complicated. I don't think it's necessarily binary (that is, ok or not ok). There are various degrees of satisfaction; and, I suppose, various levels of temptation. I suppose we can monitor our soul satisfaction and be on guard for temptation when our satisfaction is low, but sometimes it's difficult to pump up our satisfaction on demand.
4. I was a commander, literally, three times when I was in the Air Force, but I think achiever fits me better. I don't know that I use other people to achieve success (someone else might see this), but I do know that I can be preoccupied with achieving success to the point where I can forget more important things.
5. You had to ask! Clearly "superiority." It's makes me judgemental and uninterested in engaging is situations where I could be helping.
6. I haven't taken it. I probably should, but it was mentioned right after a section on how everyone is unique. It seemed contradictory that a computer algorithm could sort that out.
I've got to make this quick because I just learned today Elaine and I actually _are_ driving to Lindale, Texas starting Wednesday morning to attend my youngest son's graduation from a one-year internship (think Christian boot camp--a physical and mental crucible) at the Honor Academy operated by Teen Mania Ministries on the grounds of Keith and Melody Green's Last Days Ministries. Going had just seemed completely unfeasible but I guess the LORD had other ideas. Samuel will immediately begin two years in the HA's School of Worship so this is probably our best chance to spend a little time with him for a long time.
ReplyDeleteThank you guys for affirming my participation here. I just want to be whatever help I can be.
Many of you might find Leanne Payne's "Listening Prayer" somewhat helpful in getting a handle on having a true dialog with El Shaddai, Who really, really wants you to hear what the Spirit is saying. Ortberg has already prepared you to deal with her hard-sell about journaling. Included bonus material: part of her post-grad research into the childhood of Karl Gustav Jung ("Fascinating, Captain...").
I believe praying without ceasing, at all times, is not possible if only spoken words count. I would even go so far as to say it is not about prayer at all, but rather, it is about being in His Presence non-stop, what some have entitled "practicing the Presence." Some of the best times of a relationship occur when both parties are silent, simply enjoying each other's nearness and desire to be there. This is the fundamental value of worship, especially, and paradoxically, via music. Psalm 2 tells us the LORD inhabits the praises of His people. For more than three decades I have thought my only responsibility as a worship musician is to assist people with getting into the Throne Room (where they'll be sufficiently fortified to hear the Pastor's message ;-) ). I have become highly attuned to being an example, often in unusual, sometimes controversial ways. Dignity can go on the ashheap if that is how people will taste and see that the LORD is good.
I have a problem with "idiot lights." People treat then as infallible. The same with chiming when your door is open and your key is in the ignition. That's nice and helpful, but it cannot be dependable. Get the coolant temperature into the red area and that chime won't try to annoy you. My son Isaac needed something more than a subdued chiming recently. He needed the speakers to firmly say, "If you continue operating this vehicle in the present manner [i.e., a steady 70 mph in the left lane of the Interstates between Baltimore and Gaithersburg], the engine will shortly self-destruct." Of course, there wasn't any chiming--that sensor's input was not monitored by the program responsible for initiating the chiming. So idiot lights, gauges, and auditory signals are insufficient by themselves. The whole vehicle needs to have better "bells and whistles" designed in by the manufacturer.
That was one of those times when I found myself wondering what would Fred Rogers do...
Okay, got to run--I'll see y'all on the other side of Texas.