Comments on Chapter 3-- "Discover the Flow"from John Ortberg's The Me I Want to Be: Becoming God's Best Version of You
Note---***Week of June 27, I will post comments on Part 2 of the book which is chapters 3-6 (pages 35--78)-- I will post separate comments for each chapter throughout the week. ***
I hope things are going well and you are enjoying the book. The cool thing about a book is that you need not agree with every comment. Often the comments that you find challenging present the best discussion starters.
Here are some comments that will hopefully spark some conversation today.
1) Ortberg writes- "My main job is to remain connected to God. When my primary focus is being present with him, everything else has a way of falling into place."- page 35
*I would like to get your reactions to this statement. Do you agree or disagree? I intellectually agree with that but I wonder if that is received as far too simplistic, idealistic, and perhaps even unhelpful for some? Does it produce a sense of guilt that if things are not going well, it's all our fault?
2) Ortberg speaks of a "bridge of grace" that helps close the gap between the current "me" and the sanctified me (the me we are meant to be) . H
3) Foundational Idea of Book--"The only way to become the person God made you to be is to live with the Spirit of God flowing through you like living water." -- page 39. Perhaps its because I'm gardening a lot and using a watering can, I often think of myself as that watering can. A watering can by itself is mere decoration. It has little value as decoration but takes on great potential when a supply of water fills its interior. It moves beyond potential when the filled can is tipped and what is inside is poured out. Life is about returning to God often to be filled up. I think of the images Ortberg points out and many others in scripture which speak of the unlimited wells, life giving water that continually flows, the roaring rivers, etc that come from God to fill up his people. How do you turn to God to be filled up? Are in the flow right now is your watering can a bit dry?
4) Two great soul searching quotes from Ortberg-- page 40
"When someone bumps into me, what spills out of me reveals what's inside of me."
"When we are in the flow of the Spirit, we become increasingly full of the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodnes, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."
Answer for yourself how full of the spirit you are at the moment? What fruits of the spirit appear to be underdeveloped in your life at the moment?
5) React to the following on page 42- " a trees job is not to try and bear fruit. The trees job is to abide near the river. . . .the fruit does not ripen overnite."
As we compare this quote to #4 it appears to remind us once more that our focus needs to be on putting ourselves in places to be nourished and fed by God. As one who has planted a garden this year for the first time, I see that watering is a daily discipline. I water over and over and over again and it takes a long time for the vegetables to reach maturity. . . .but, I keep at it just as God keeps working in our lives, trying to get through.
6) What are ways in which you "open yourself" to the spirits influence in your life?
What are ways in which you "close yourself off to the spirit's influence in your life?" (a.k.a "quenching the spirit"-- see page 44)
7) GPS image closes the chapter. Do you believe that God is ready to guide you home? Is the GPS in your life unplugged, plugged in and listening, in need of "u-turn", or plugged in once more and ready for new directions?
I'm enjoying this book a lot-----
ReplyDelete1- Yes, for me this is a sense of not being close enough to God and it being my fault, thus, if things aren't going well, or the way I see them as going well, then It's my fault. I haven't been praying enough, spending enough quiet time with God--something is lacking. It seems as if it is in my control how much time I spend with God, and in turn, how close we become, and how well things will go in my life.
3- Turning to God to be filled up....sometimes for me it's turning to other people who God puts close to me that are serving to me as God's messangers here on Earth. I try turning to God, but find the waters aren't flowing for me at the time. Yes, my watering can is a little dry right now.
4- Fruits of the Spirit--those that are underdeveloped for me are joy, peace and patience. This is such a transition summer for me with the anticipation of our daughter heading to college that it seems like we are doing lots of changes- cell phone plans, many purchases to go away, her job that is long and demanding, care for mother-in-law--that the living in joy is more like stress, as with peace. Looking forward to resolution of such changes and increased fruits of the spirit.
5- My reaction to "a tree's job is not to bear fruit..." was at first disagreement. After more thought, yes, God is not looking for immediate results, but to stay where we can be nourished, allowed time to grow and flourish, and later, fruit will come. It tells me to really exercise patience with me, my husband and daughter.
7- GPS---my GPS is plugged in much of the time, but not always, and that part is frustrating. It is looking for new directions for sure, and that's one of the reasons I'm reading this book and part of the study.
1 – For me it is rather simplistic and frustrating because it does make me feel guilty – like it’s my fault things aren’t going well and my responsibility to do more to bring God closer – more prayer time, more meditation, more acts of service (more guilt, more frustration). The intent is wonderful, but Ortberg hasn’t said (yet) how to change my focus. He implies in the first chapters that it isn’t about doing stuff (out of sense of guilt or responsibility). Strikes me a bit as a chicken/egg proposition – which comes first: becoming present with God or doing stuff that should help/get you in the right frame of mind to be present with God?
ReplyDelete2 – Grace IS the bridge between the current me and the sanctified me – I get that I can’t make myself ‘right’ (the sanctified me) under my own power. The part that seems elusive is how do I access/accept God’s grace – I certainly don’t do it routinely or on a sustained basis.
3 – I’m not a gardener, and while I think I ‘get’ these images, they aren’t that powerful to me. What does strike me is the need to have God continually fill me up. Water gets poured out, evaporates, and otherwise needs replenishing. I must admit to sometimes deluding myself into thinking that if I got filled up properly, I wouldn’t have to come back to God to be refilled again and again. I can never seem to find the same path back to get refilled with God’s spirit. And really, what does it mean to be refilled? Is it something I should be doing daily? Weekly? Hourly? My watering can is pretty dry at the moment.
4 – I liked the quote about what spills out of me reveals what’s inside of me. I’m not spilling out much fruit of the spirit these days. Part of the appeal is that spilling out of me implies that what’s coming out is not a carefully crafted image or response, but an outpouring that is who I really am at the moment. At the moment, I am impatient, anxious, and unsatisfied with my life. That’s what’s spilling over when I deal with people these days (and I don’t like it).
5 – At first thought, I disagreed – the tree DOES bear fruit, but I have to agree with Sue, that on further reflection, the point is the tree ‘s job is to stay planted and nourished, and be patient – the fruit will come. But does the image of tree imply we should be immovable? If I’m in a bad place (emotionally, spiritually), don’t I need to move to put myself within reach of God’s nourishment? That’s maybe my biggest problem with the tree image – it seems anchored and unmovable – which is great if you’re already rooted/anchored in God – but for me, struggling with the me I am vs the me God created me to be, it makes me feel stuck.
6 – Ways I open myself to the Spirits influence in my life? Staying involved in studies like these. Finding ways to acknowledge on a regular basis that my whole life is a gift from God (being aware of God’s interest and influence in my life). Having talks with others who I feel have some spiritual maturity and wisdom. Working on Frontline devotions – letting the scriptures speak to me (and reading the Frontline devotions – appreciating the insights of others).
7 – Again, I found the image, while entertaining, a little simplistic. I think my “GPS” is plugged in, but sometimes I just look at the map to see where I am, rather than ask for guidance. But I really related to the idea of thinking I know better than the GPS (because the GPS in my car is based on dated maps and sometimes I have more up-to-date information. God’s GPS has to assume that God has better/more current maps than I do).
1. I agree with most of the comments in that this is just too simplistic and not very realistic. I know that the ideal way to feel is that nothing else really matters, but we all know if we can't pay our bills or someone we love is ill or our kids are in trouble, or or or...that even if we've been focused the right direction, things don't all always fall into place.
ReplyDelete2. At this point gap management is an issue, as Grace said, that is elusive at best.
3. Maybe because I lived several years in Arizona, but I thought instantly of the cactus. They don't need much water. It's pretty hard to kill them. And most of the time, with no help from anyone, they flourish. I think I believe I'm a cactus sometimes and that if I just get a few drops every so often, I'll be okay. When of course, I know that the more water the cactus gets, the more beautiful its desert flowers become. But I tend to forget that part.
4. One of the greatest wishes that I have is to have what spills out of me at home, be the same thing that spills out in public.
5. Well....again, my cactus doesn't try very hard to be anything but a cactus. But he does on some level know that he can be a better cactus if the skies cooperate. That part is not up to him though. And yes, that's a little hard to apply to reality as well. When I stand still not much else happens but a tremendous amount of not knowing what to do next!
6. Merely choosing to get up on Sundays is a choice between opening and closing that door. I know this from the years of not having made the choice. I also know it takes much more than just showing up. But getting there does quench the spirit and does make me want to fill up more.
7. Yet another analogy that hits home. I can get lost in the mall. I really need a gps on my body in order to not get lost. Just ask my kids. And the recalculating voice...that woman and I are best friends some days, and she says that to me more than I'd like to admit. I also know this for a fact. Some days I don't turn it on when I know I should because of that little voice inside of me that thinks...."what's the worst that could happen? So I get a little lost?" But sometimes I get more than a little lost. And then even the gps has a hard time getting me back to the main road. It's that voice inside that's the problem most times.
1. I have a real problem with this statement to me it is not Biblical at all. Many times in scripture we are told that even though we have a relationship with God we will find we are going to encounter many trials and tribulations. We are further instructed that we should rejoice in our afflictions as they are an instrument to strengthen our faith. We have so many witnesses before us that prove to us that this is true and the most important one is Jesus the one who was connected to God in every way, did he not have many trials, did he not suffer anguish in the garden of Gethsemane, did he not cry out from the cross "My God my God why have you forsaken me?" I do not see this as everything falling into place. I must say that right now in my life I have been going through many trials and at the same time have been trying to get back into a relationship with God that I walked away from but to say that I would not be in this predicament had I have had God as my primary focus is not realistic at all. I can see that if God was the focus of my life that the struggles I have been facing would not be as difficult but certainly not easy. We live in a fallen world and therefore no matter our relationship with God things will not always fall into place. I cannot imagine anyone saying to a devout couple whose child is killed in a tragic accident that things are just falling into place ,I know that this is an "extreme" example but i think it illustrates my point.
ReplyDelete6. I have returned to a worshipping community in order to open up the Holy Spirits influence in my life. I also have recently help facilitate a spiritual retreat that once again has affirmed some of the gifts of the spirit that I have received. I also know that there are gifts of the spirit that are lacking in my life. I realize that I must open myself up by whatever means I can to receive the gifts that God so deeply wants to give me.
7. My GPS was off for a couple of years and I have turned it on again however I think I may be trying to look at a map to find an easier way at least to me to get "there" or probably I still do not fully trust in the GPS to show me the way. Could the GPS ultimately give me the easiest way to get there but it seems to easy for my to believe? Perhaps that is the real question I should ask myself.
I think this chapter is a wakeup call for most folks. Responses to it are telling; i.e., what is spilling out. We're moving into the area of traction, where the rubber meets the road. Are you defensive of your perceived failure to measure up? Perhaps you take the position that Ortberg is disseminating impractical, nay, impossible expectations for normal Believers?
ReplyDeleteMost of us advance spiritually by screaming and kicking, dragging our heels, and so forth, as the Master Potter works on us. He has promised to complete the good work He began in each of us, so He's the responsible party, not us. His goal is nothing less than each of us becoming conformed to the image of His Son, in this realm, and not merely for a second or two every blue moon. We hogtie ourselves when we say this goal cannot be Scriptural. We are in no position to argue with Him about His plans to make it so, with each plan unique for each unique person. Ask Job. We are, however, in a position to make the process much harder upon ourselves than would be necessary if only we cooperated as much as possible.
Replace the metaphor of the watering can with the image of a beautiful fountain, with water constantly in motion. Moment by moment, just like Jesus, we must keep in step with the Spirit, the overflow continuous, ongoing, never ceasing, like Paul's injunction to pray without ceasing (what is the Greek verb there, anyway?).
This is either possible for every one or no one. So is it possible? Has any one besides Jesus ever demonstrated it is possibile? Paul? Stephen? Any one you know?
Or maybe you see this potential as a limit function. You can approach the limit but never reach it. Okay, but some are approaching it much more closely than you are (and some less closely than you, too). Do not then take the position that your limit is actually less than the "theoretical" limit. Do not attempt to lower this bar from where the LORD has set it. Each of the seven messages to the churches mention promises that are conditional upon "overcoming," including the one about not getting your name blotted out of the Book of Life.
IMHO, of course. :-)
I think this chapter is a wake up call for most folks. Responses to it are telling; i.e., what is spilling out. We're moving into the area of traction, where the rubber meets the road. Are you defensive of your perceived failure to measure up? Perhaps you take the position that Ortberg is disseminating impractical, nay, impossible expectations for "normal" Believers?
ReplyDeleteMost of us advance spiritually by screaming, kicking, dragging our heels, and so forth, as the Master Potter works on us. He has promised to complete the good work He began in each of us, so He's the responsible party, not us. His goal is nothing less than each of us becoming conformed to the image of His Son, in this realm, and not merely for a second or two every blue moon. We hogtie ourselves when we say this goal cannot be Scriptural. We are in no position to argue with Him about His plans to make it so, with each plan unique for each unique person--ask Job. We are, however, in a position to make the process much harder upon ourselves than would be necessary if only we cooperated as much as possible.
Replace the metaphor of the watering can with the image of a beautiful fountain, with water constantly in motion. Moment by moment, just like Jesus, we must keep in step with the Spirit, the overflow continuous, ongoing, never ceasing, like Paul's injunction to pray without ceasing (what is the Greek verb there, anyway?).
This is either possible for every one or no one. So is it possible? Has any one besides Jesus ever demonstrated it is possible? Paul? Stephen? Any one you know?
Or maybe you see this potential as a limit function. You can approach the limit but never reach it. Okay, but some are approaching it much more closely than you are (and some less closely than you, too). Do not then take the position that your limit is actually less than the "theoretical" limit. Do not attempt to lower this bar from where the LORD has set it. Each of the seven messages to the churches mention promises that are conditional upon "overcoming," including the one about not getting your name blotted out of the Book of Life.
1) Sometimes things just happen - and not always good things. I guess I don’t think that if things aren’t going well that it is because I am not connected to God. But I do think that God is there for me when things aren’t going well. I remember one time where the sun was shining, and it was such a beautiful day. But things were not going well, my mother was sick in the hospital, my father was not handling it well, I backed into another car in the morning, an elderly lady that I had been visiting was in intensive care, and at work they were talking of layoffs. I was pretty young at this time, and things were dismal. But by being hopeful and relying on God, and seeing God through my family and friends, things did get eventually better I always think as long as we can be hopeful and put our trust in God will give us strength to meet what we need to meet. It might just take awhile to turn the corner to something better.
ReplyDelete2) I get that we need grace. But it makes me think about Bonhoffer’s “"cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” It just seems like we have to do a little more than “flow with the grace.”
3) With the water restriction in Montgomery County, this really hits home. Without the water of God we really become parched and dried up. In life, I think we need to go God as our “water” continuously.
4) "When someone bumps into me, what spills out of me reveals what's inside of me."
I hope for the most part that I relay positive energy. But I know a lot of the time I am impatient and ready to move ahead, rather than stopping and listening to the person next to me.
6) What are ways in which you "open yourself" to the spirits influence in your life?
What are ways in which you "close yourself off to the spirit's influence in your life?" (a.k.a "quenching the spirit"-- see page 44)
I have a friend who just asked me if I really go to church every Sunday. And I answered – well I like to go. And it is true, I think coming to the service and listening to the words and the music helps me “open myself” to the spirit of God. I walk my dog every morning, and that time of quiet is also needed. Being with my family at the dinner table, when we truly talk is very precious and I feel closer to God at these times. I am guilty of enjoying eating out too much, but I think a lot of it is that I relax and listen to my family, rather than bustling off to clean dishes, or to close the doors on the kitchen cabinets.
I think I close myself off when I fill up my life with endless activities – and I don’t have a moment to reflect on what is really important. What is worse, I am not truly enjoying life.